John Warrillow | Key Considerations When Thinking About Selling Your Company

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John Warrillow | Key Considerations When Thinking About Selling Your Company

Our guest on this week’s Over 50 Entrepreneur Podcast is CEO of the Value Builder System, John Warrillow. John is also the host of the Built to Sell Radio podcast as well as the author of Built to Sell: Creating a Business That Can Thrive Without You, The Automatic Customer, and The Art of Selling Your Business.

John says, “Society places a tremendous premium on business ownership, so I think in many cases, we get a bit addicted to that sense of fulfillment that comes with running a company, even though in many cases we’ve stopped feeling the freedom.”

We chat about Built to Sell, as well as:

  • The importance of taking risks in business
  • Becoming risk-averse when you are spearheading your business
  • Always considering the next chapter
  • Buying and selling with private equity groups
  • And more

Listen now…


Mentioned in this episode:



Voiceover: You’re listening to the Over 50 Entrepreneur, the podcast that’s dedicated to the business builders who are only getting started, when most are winding down. This is the place to discover how to create more freedom from your business, while growing the value of your business. Now, here’s your host, Rick Hadrava.

Rick Hadrava: Hey, everybody, this is Rick Hadrava.. And if you’ve listened to this podcast before you know who I am, I’m the host of the Over 50 Entrepreneur podcast. If you go back to episode nine, one of our earliest shows that we did, you’ll know Today’s guest is John Warrillow. You know, he’s an author, podcast, host and CEO of the Value Builder System. But much more than that, he’s become a resource, a friend. And just I found that he and his organization are just really, really valuable in the work that we try to do with our business owner community. And so John, John has a new book out, you know, I thought it would be great to bring him to the show. And so without further ado, without a big intro, let’s just welcome to the podcast this morning, John Warrillow. John, thanks so much for being on the show.

John Warrillow: Hey, thanks, Rick good to be back.

Rick: Yes. You know, you’ve done not only the podcast, but you’ve been on our freedom series calls. And the feedback each time has been tremendous. And so let’s dig right in. And, you know, I want to I want to talk, I thought it’d be a good idea to maybe kick things off this morning with a comment you made on a call we were on recently, where you talked about kind of being criticized by a another podcast host, I think it was for your book Built to Sell. And for our audience that maybe doesn’t know you wrote Built to Sell many years ago. But talk to me about the criticism that you received. And maybe as you’ve had time to reflect on that criticism outside of the moment. Any new thoughts that have come to your mind?

John: Yeah, happy to do that. So yeah, this book Built to Sell is why I occasionally get asked to do podcasts. And usually podcasts are pretty, pretty friendly affairs right there. People like you are like, We’re friends outside of podcasts. It’s usually a pretty casual thing. I remember getting this one. And the guy starts off and he says warlow, right? Yeah, you’re the guy who wrote Built to Sell. It’s kind of a douchebag thing to do. And I thought, Oh, my Lord, what am I going to do with this, because I’ve never been called that before. I’ve never even used that term really, like, I mean, it’s not something I would say or feel like is something I feel akin to. But here he was putting me on the spot saying that, of course, his sentiment was that building the cell was this very kind of like money grubbing greedy thing to do and, and that really what we should all be doing is building to last and building multi generational companies and handing them down to our kids and building a legacy. And you know, I was just on my back foot the whole call.

And I’ve had lots of time to think about it since then. And I’ve really come to the conclusion of how vehemently I disagree with that sentiment. And that is that, you know, I think we all have a best before date. I think we all do our best work as entrepreneurs, usually when things are really challenging when there’s a premium paid for good ideas and creativity. And then we reach a point I think most of us reach a point where it becomes rote and our soul starts to shrink. And that’s when it’s a unique opportunity to let someone else take over the company. I wrote about in the book, this guy named Joey Redner, who built cigar city. Have you ever drank a beer from cigar city brewing? I don’t think I have no it’s a it’s a little craft beer brewed was not so little anymore as a craft brewery out of Tampa. And he built this thing. Little distillery to begin board 800 grand from his dad because it’s a capital intensive business but bought a bunch of money from his dad start to pay that back but he can sold out of all the beer.

So we had a big a builder beginning build a bigger facility and had more money from the SBA to do that. And now he’s in hock to his dad, he’s in hock to the SBA. He sells out of the beard third guy, third time he has to build more more capacity redner kind of throws up his hands and says enough already like I’m in so far in debt. I’ve got a so called profitable business, but I just feel the weight of it and he sold the Oskar blues, the got that, you know, craft brewery, and you know, put a bunch of money in his jeans and he’s free again. And I think there’s nothing wrong With that, right, there’s nothing wrong effectively with finding a new owner for your business when your tenure in it has reached, it’s, for whatever reason, I don’t think that’s selling out, I think it’s in many cases, the best thing for the company?

Rick: Well, it’s interesting because I find that, you know, I’ve always looked at the concept of Built to Sell, as if you, you not only owe it to yourself, because like you said, you know, we all get kind of, I don’t know, worn out or, or need for something different in our lives. But we owe it to our customers that are raging fans, we owe it to our employees, and I think our family members to be able to identify that. And I wonder, you know, if that john, maybe, is the reason that so many businesses never get themselves to a position to think about selling, especially after the business owners spent their whole life, right, putting their blood, sweat and tears into an organization. And thoughts on that?

John: Yeah, I mean, I think it just becomes so much of a part of our self worth, you know, so much of, you know, how we show up in the world, how you know, the value we have, as members of our families, right? The ego boost you get when people have to listen to you as as your employees do. And of course, society places a tremendous premium on business ownership. And so, I think, in many cases, we get a bit addicted to that, that sense of fulfillment that comes with running a company, even though in many cases, we stopped feeling the freedom. So we are, I think, replace the energy and excitement and creativity and freedom you feel when you start a company. And you lose that but you get in its place, this sense of obligation and legacy and ego. And the two, I think replace one another. And again, I think the shelf life of the ego piece, it does have a shelf life in the sense that a lot of businesses become held back by a founder who is no longer willing to take risks is no longer has the same energy they came to their company.

And what we don’t realize and what we have a time, a hard time, I think reconciling with is this, this idea that your company may actually be better off better off for everybody better off for customers better off for employees, in someone else’s hands, someone a bigger company that is willing to take risks again, you know, you’ve seen it in your own work, I’m sure Rick, where we got where we have businesses, who, when they start their business is worth virtually like zero as a percentage of their net worth, right, they own a home, maybe maybe a 401k. But they the business is worthless, they build it up doesn’t have to be a huge business $3- $4 million in revenue, it could easily be 80% of their net worth, right and a little something funny happens. I’m sure you’ve seen it with clients, that, that business owners become like a yoke, it becomes they drag down their business, because all of a sudden, when it’s 80% of your network, you can’t afford to lose it. Right? So that kind of catalyzing new product idea all of a sudden becomes man maybe next year, right? Or that hiring that new General Manager, that new salesperson, yeah, you know, that’s a lot of money. Again, that’s holding your business back. And it’s limiting it from your employees perspective. And it’s also limiting it from your customers perspective. So there is a time where we reach the point where we become, I think a bit of a liability for our companies, as opposed to it’s, you know, our biggest asset.

Rick: You know, John, I love that because we talk of freedom in two concepts one of time, because we know that, you know, you get like you said, you get passionate about what you’re doing, you’ve got purpose, and you’re driving. But over time, if you don’t step back and think about how to operate this thing as the owner, we all know we get stuck in that owners trap in so we do a lot of work of trying to free up time, right? to try to prevent burnout. But also financial freedom. And it’s funny, you know, the majority of small businesses in the US don’t even have a seven figure revenue to them. And that’s okay, that’s not necessary if it’s congruent with the personal goals and the health of the organization. But what we find is, a lot of times that’s a litmus test for owners. It really if we focus on those things and have conversations about them, it signals that hey, maybe it is time to think about exiting. And the other thing that it does is we like to question like if you weren’t doing this, what would you be doing right and I know John, we’ve done that work with the value builder system is it’s that next chapter. It’s a bigger future is that is that I’d like to say and, and I think I just wonder how many business owners out there listening, maybe talk to us talk about it, really, if they were honest with themselves have those feelings but they kind of keep them inside, right. like nobody can know how I really feel about it.

John: Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. And and, and we’ve done a bunch of research on this topic that a lot of owners end up regretting their decision to sell, because they’re all pushing no pull, meaning they’re, they’re, they’re all push all of the reasons they want to sell or frustrations, they’re being pushed out of their business. It’s, it’s COVID restrictions, its employees, it’s red tape, whatever. And they and they say enough is enough, I’m selling. But they failed to do the other side, which is what are you excited to go do? Like, what is your thing that you’re really pumped up about? And you know, I, you mentioned this podcast, I think I’ve done 300 episodes now for built this on radio. And I can I can say definitively that the happiest people are not kind of, you’re rocking on their chair with a glass of lemonade counting their money they are, they’ve started another company, right? And they’re off to the next thing. And they’re not bashful about the fact that they built something, they created some value, they sold it and they’re often on the business doesn’t mean they have to retire. It means they, they’re, you know, they’re probably better suited to run a company for the first few years. When creativity is a premium.

Rick: And that’s a good point that you bring up. It doesn’t mean they have to retire. And I think you’ve mentioned this before, John, one of the key factors in a business owner who has sold being unhappy, really is that they have not given thought to what it is they want to do after that chapter. Right. But okay, so you brought up COVID.

John: Did I say that C word?

Rick: No, let’s, let’s take that elephant in the room for a second, sir. You’ve done some really good research this last few months or last year, on business owners in an eye, I like to encompass it into 2020. Right, we like to around here, we like to say that 2020 really opened our eyes and revealed a lot of things. Right. And it’s COVID. It’s politics. It’s the business environment that’s come from these things. share with us some of the statistics, some of the things that you found in the work that you’ve done recently, as we segue kind of into what you’re doing right now.

John: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So yeah, you’re right, we, we, so we have this thing called value builder, the value builder system, which you are a partner with. And so when people start with us, we haven’t do a questionnaire, we ask them a bunch of questions about their company. So we’ve got lots of data to choose from. And we analyze the data, the eight months preceding the announcement of the global pandemic. So think about like the eight months leading up to march of 2020. And then the eight months after March of 2020. So during the pandemic, and we just analyze the data between the two and saw what changed couple of big things change, the first of which is that business owners have moved forward their date by which they want to get out by so by 20%, they’ve moved forward. So in other words, they want to sell 20% sooner.

Now, we could all hypothesize as to why that is, I don’t I think it’s pretty obvious, right? You’re you have been kicked around over 2020. In virtually any industry, this has been, you know, very difficult for a lot of business owners. And so for those who have gone through the great recession in 2008 2009, this is just the second punch to the gut. And so I think a lot of business owners are saying, you know, enough, I can’t deal with a third, you know, Black Swan. So for that reason, I think that a lot of people are getting out. The other thing I think is really interesting, it kind of goes back to our earlier conversation, Rick around legacy, and that is that the proportion of business owners planning to do a family transition, as dropped precipitously. And in favor, there’s an increase in the proportion of business owners who want to sell to a third party.

Again, we can kind of go back and forth as to why that is, I have my own theory. And that is that, given the stress that this pandemic has caused a lot of small business owners, they have no interest in, in passing that ball of stress down to their kids, right? They’ve seen what it’s done to them physically, emotionally, mentally, and they don’t want that they want their kid in many cases to go get a job at Procter and Gamble, or Ford or whatever. Because it’s been a tough year for a lot of business owners. So we’re seeing, you know, an increase in the proportion of people who want to sell to a third party, and they want to do that sooner than they would traditionally have thought about.

Rick: So, you know, it brings up a point from a buyer’s perspective. I think, like in any rough period of time, we’ve also seen a creation of new businesses, new startups. And I always wonder, like, how does that compare? I mean, I know it’s sexy, it’s Hollywood, right startup. And, you know, at least that’s how it appears right behind the scenes, there’s many hats, you’re, you’re doing things that you maybe didn’t think you’d have to deal with. But with all the businesses that are starting to think about selling, and I think about demographics, and I think about, you know, all the needs and not wanting to bring in the family, what’s the environment on the buyer side? In this? And, you know, are we going to have less buyers? Do you see that and more supply, businesses come into the market?

John: I think it all comes down to interest rates. If we have interest rates as low as they are right now, that basically creates an A Legion, an army of private equity groups, because the way private equity groups work, as you know, Rick, is that they basically, they, they are fueled by debt. So they borrow money, they buy a company, most of the money is borrowed. And they view that the view is that they use that basically the profits of the company to pay back the debt and then sell the company on after potentially grafting it together with a couple of other businesses. The increase in the private equity universe is, you know, unimaginable again, it’s, it’s become almost impossible to lose money with interest rates, as cheap as they are. So provided interest rates stay low, I think we’re going to have a very big community of buyers out there looking to buy small companies, which I think is inoculating to some extent, the the natural laws of supply and demand which would take over, given the baby boomers are retiring at an unprecedented rate. So that you know that the logical thinking would be okay, we’re gonna have a ton of businesses on the market because the baby boomers are all selling, and, and therefore the prices are going to go down.

Again, that’s been muted, to some extent, that price decrease are that downward pressure on prices, it’s been muted by how low interest rates are, and how many private equity groups are buying businesses. And so they’ve nicely offset. But if that balance gets disturbed, ie interest rates go up a lot. And that could that could cause you know, the private equity groups to pull back there for you know, an oversupply in the marketplace. But right now, I we’re not seeing that we’re, we’re actually seeing almost a little bit more of the opposite, where we’re valuations are going up a little bit, just given the influx of private equity money.

Rick: Well, and we see that in the RA space, just to make it relative to kind of some of the businesses we own. And it’s really money chasing deals. And so it begs kind of the question, you know, if I’m just an individual interested in buying a business, and taking it over, you know, I’m going to have to compete with that environment. Really, is this a time? You know, question that comes to my mind? Is this the time to be a buyer, unless your private equity? And if you’re a seller, John, what recommendation? Or what thoughts do you have on dealing with private equity in this environment?

John: Well, the first and I go into the length of this in the book is that, you know, private equity or companies in my experience are like sheep, they follow one another, they have the same investment criteria. They all are looking for, you know, a business with a million bucks in EBIT, da that is in a protected niche with an existing management team that’s willing to stay I mean, like you could, you could pull 50 different private equity groups website and investment criteria looks virtually identical. They want you know, manufacturing businesses and and med tech businesses, but like, they’re very, very similar. And if there’s anything that allows a business owner, to punch above their weight when selling it’s competitive bids. And so my first advice would be, if you’ve got an offer from a private equity group, great. There’s probably 50 other private equity groups, if you pass the hurdle rate for one that there’s probably 50 others out there that will want to sell it to buy your business.

So don’t negotiate with one private equity group. Make sure you’ve got multiple bidders at the table, that’s going to just give you leverage, right. And the leverage is important because most private equity groups are going to want to run gonna want you to roll some equity. So it’s an interesting model whereby they usually buy the majority of your company 60-70%. But they get you to hold enough so that it hurts, right. So it’s like 30%, right? So you get paid, get some money in your jeans, that’s great, but you still got a fair chunk of wealth on the table. And they do that intentionally because they want you to stick around for the quote unquote second bite of the apple. The challenge though is now you’re a minority shareholder. During a company, you don’t fully control, and that can be the worst of both worlds for a lot of entrepreneurs. So number one, get multiple bitters. So that you can really drive the deal you want and that may be to carry less equity going forward. I’m not a big, big fan of being a minority shareholder in a business, I don’t control I like, it’s just, it’s just not it’s I think it’s, you know, I just did a podcast yesterday, actually, Rick, where a guy sold 60% of his business, to one private equity group sold it for $17.5 million.

So amazing, you know, results sold 60% kept 40, in a new entity, private equity group brought in new management, new management failed, they had a big leverage on the business, they were paying back the debt, couldn’t afford to pay back the debt, the new entity went bankrupt, and he was left with nothing for his 40%. So you could argue while he’s still got 60% of 17 million, but the problem with that way of thinking is that he probably could have gotten a bigger proportion of his deal up front from five other private equity groups, if you know, so, in retrospect, his big learning was like, I wish I just chopped it, you know, and gotten more more offers on the table. So I don’t know how I got all of that.

Rick: No, it’s, it’s good stuff, because what comes to my mind, and this segues kind of into my next question, but you know, you’re looking as a seller, so let’s say you, you, you’re in that, in that thought process of, you know, what, I’m ready to transition to do something else in my life, it’s ready, right, I’m ready to pass the baton. And whether that’s private equity, which what I hear you saying is, hey, that that’s your opportunity to get the biggest check, you can possibly by bidding these guys up, don’t don’t take the first offer, go out there and let let these people know that that you’re thinking about it, versus finding somebody that maybe takes over the business, maybe a key employee. Or maybe it’s a family member, or maybe it’s a third party, but it’s an individual right in, in there’s pluses and minuses of that. But the thing that comes to my mind, when I hear you say that, John is, you got to know your number.

And you’ve done something interesting recently, with the freedom point in it. What I like about it is it’s something that I’ve done for 26 years, and whether it’s been with individual investors who are retiring, you know, we seem to focus on the wrong thing, as business owners thinking about selling or investors planning for the retirement. And I think when we start we start with with objectives, right? What is that objective? And it’s really around realistic ways to understand the numbers. And I think one of the best ways to do that is to, you know, kind of take the cliche, you know, begin with the end in mind, it’s really what are we trying to do? Look, I need a, I need a pocket of money, that will give me the freedom that I want, that I have the biggest probability of not outliving my money, or maybe I have legacy concerns, community things, I’d like to do whatever the case may be.

And, you know, we use withdrawal rates when we when we talk about investing. But we also use those when we talk about business owners. And we say, you know, the first question I get asked a lot of times is how, what’s my business worth? Right? Like, how do I get a valuation? In while that’s it’s a good point, I always try to get them to understand it’s a snapshot, because the real question is, What do you need? Right? What is it that you’re going to need from your business? Because I think you’ve said this, and I’ve quoted this 1000 times, it’s not what the valuation is, it’s what somebody’s willing to write you a check for, that really matters. And so, you know, we we like to use 4%, as kind of a baseline for withdrawal, so that we can work through the numbers to figure out statistically what they need. And I know, you know, we can go deep on that topic alone, because there’s so much academia around, you know, is it 5%? Is it 4% should be 3%. And that number can shift even on an annual basis based on maybe market returns. If they invest the money, you know, for other purposes. But talk to me, why did the freedom point become something you started to, to think about and talk about it? And why do you think that’s so important for business owner, as they’re thinking about selling their business?

John: Well, it becomes Yeah, I think a lot of business owners right now are risk on and it goes back to a conversation we had a few minutes ago, which was that for a lot of small businesses right now, their business, if they’ve been a little successful over the last 2030 years, it’s become a huge proportion of their net worth. And and when they talk to you about their 401k they’re like, Rick, I want to be diversified. Right? I want a little Microsoft. I want a little Ford. I want a little Tesla. Great. Right. But when it comes to their overall wealth picture, 80% of their wealth is tied up in one illiquid asset or company. And the bigger the company gets, the more successful the company gets, the more they’re risk on. And when I talk about risk on, it’s like Wall Street, you know, term, I don’t want it to sound Wall Street.

But basically, it just means if you visualize the blackjack player in Las Vegas at the table, when he takes all his chips and throws them on, you know, on the table for a bet, that’s what a business owner does every single day they walk into their shop or their store or their office, without selling it when they’re beyond the freedom point because they’re effectively risking a an independent life a free life, you know, the aspiration that we all have, in return for something that they may not need or want. So when you reach the freedom point, it is the point at which the sale of your company and the after tax proceeds of the sale of your company will fund reasonably whatever you want to go to do for the rest of your life. So if you take for example, you want I mean, make up a number 100 grand a year and to do would make you feel completely liberated and free for the rest of your life.

As an example, if you want to use a 4% withdrawal rate, you multiply by 25. If you want to use a 3%, you multiply by 33. And that’s your nest egg you got to create, right, and then when you’re after tax proceeds after the frictional costs of selling and paying your broker and all jazz exceeds that amount of money. You could effectively sell and be free for the rest of your life. And it just begs the question, is it worth it? For me to place that bet to continue to own my business, when effectively I’m risking what I said in the beginning was my aspiration. For some people, it is worth it. Because they get intrinsic value. They love what they’re doing. They’ve got a huge vision of becoming $100 million company one day, but for many others, when we put it to them like that, it’s like oh my gosh, I’ve never even thought about it. That and that’s when it’s like, you know what it might be worth selling some all of your company getting that first rung on the success ladder, Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, or whatever it is like that, you know, food and shelter is sort of done forever. That can be very liberating for a lot of people.

Rick: It’s absolutely you know, it’s interesting, because we talk about business owner timelines. And the reality is every business owner is on the timeline. Some are new in their journey, some are in the middle of the road. And some are like we’ve been talking about thinking about that next chapter, whatever it may be. And if they think about that, the thing I find fascinating is we focus on value and freedom financially. But the reality is, if they start looking at the risk, like you said, Hey, they’ve figured out their freedom number, right, that point. But then let’s go back. Okay, what could trip that up right in for some people, it’s a key employee or key partner, something happening to him passing a law passing, passing away. You know, it’s one of the reasons that I started eight years ago, really working with business owners, is I had a situation where a successful business owner just abruptly passed away, and there was no estate plan, there was no liquidity in the business for the family, the family couldn’t keep the lifestyle and keep the business going.

In, they were not in the position of power through that transaction. And so they had to make some tough choices. But to your point, when you kind of recognize what you’re doing and what it’s doing for you, and where you are, you can start to think about what risks are need to be addressed. Right, as we go through here. That’s what I love about the work we do, because we try to bring that out in that thing. And, John, it. You know, we talked about this before we went live today, and I talked to you about burnout. And really if I had to wrap 2020. And I know we may be into the new year already when this comes out. But we’ve seen a lot of burnout in the business owner environment. And what’s interesting is Yeah, you can you can go Yeah, it’s got to be all these businesses that have closed, it’s got to be this business is struggling to stay afloat. But I’m even seeing burnout in businesses that are thriving right now. And, you know, we talked about harmony of mission and all this kind of thing. Is that what really, you know, you see these increases in the numbers that you’re looking at? Do you think under those numbers? burnout is a key component of it Really?

John: Absolutely. Yeah. And it goes on a spectrum, right. So you do have on one end of the spectrum, restaurants for example, service companies that have been devastated financially but by this and so that that goes without saying But to your point, there are other businesses that have pivoted or and are thriving or you know, they’re they’re they’re doing things that that where demand is actually increased. But they’re human beings, right. And I think if we just look at what COVID has done for our all of our mental health, it has been in many cases devastating. And so, you know, you you, in a lot of cases, you don’t have the same human connection that you have, right. So as a business owner, you’re often very plugged into your industry, you go to Vegas for the big event every year, you get your tires pumped up a little bit by, you know, interacting with your employees, and that feels good that you’re the boss and you’re paying some people like there’s, there’s a huge social element of being a business owner that has all been ripped away from everybody. And even if your company is thriving, I think a lot of people are, are struggling mentally. And I’m not look, I’m not shrink, I can’t help that. I’ve seen it. But I felt it personally, but I and I don’t know how to get over that. But it’s, I’ve definitely seen it. I’m on a lot of business owners.

Rick: Yeah. Well, listen, you know, this has been great. And you know, it’s a little longer than most, but I that’s on purpose, because we have some great information. And you know, you, our audience, hopefully they’ve grabbed your book Built to Sell, if they haven’t, it’s one I recommend I give away all the time. You’ve got the automatic customer, but now you’ve got this new book called The Art of Selling your Business. Why? Why was that important to you, John? And what are you hoping to get out of it?

John: Well, thanks for bringing it up. Yeah, I, you know, I do this podcast, I interview, hundreds have done the 300 interviews and and I’ve seen the best and the worst I’ve seen business owners punch well above their weight, sell relatively small companies for enormous multiples of their profit or even their revenue in some cases. And and I’ve also seen the opposite of, you know, businesses that were on paper really valuable. And through a few simple mistakes, the owner ends up giving away for pennies on the dollar. So I tried to codify these lessons into a bit of an action plan for owners that are thinking that they’d like to sell, selling a business generally something called Have you ever heard of the 5 to 20 rule that we were talking about that before?

Rick: I think we have, but I couldn’t explain it to you. So once you share with our audience,

John: it’s simple. It’s just it simply states that the natural buyer for your company is a business that’s generally between five and 20 times your size, right? And so if you think about that, by definition, you can start to think if you’re a million dollar company, that means it’s feminine, like five to 20 million, whatever. By definition, you’re going into a David and Goliath battle, right? And you’re not Goliath, you’re the David. And so you need to figure out how to, you know, counteract the other side, they’ve got more money to spend on fancier lawyers, they’ve got more leverage in the negotiation, just based on their size. And so the idea is that there’s a lot of art to selling a company and that you can punch above your weight, if you take a couple of proactive measures. And so yeah, I’m excited about the book, I think it’s gonna help a lot of people that are starting to kind of think about maybe, you know, maybe it does make sense for me to, to make an exit?

Rick: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you know, John, we come to the end of the show, we always like to say, look, if people want to learn about the book, some of the resources that you guys, the new resources you put out there, obviously, they can get the value builder assessment on our website, and I’ll close with that. But how do people get access to the stuff that you’ve got available today?

John: Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, go to you, right, as one of our certified partners, you’ve got access to everything. So from everything for the masterminds that you do, and then webinars you host, I think it’s amazing, I’m proud to be partnered with you. So I think you’re an amazing resource. So go to Rick, if you want to learn a little bit about the book, we put together a couple of fun little tools and resources. So that’s the best place to do that is just go to built to slash selling. And we’ve got some sir gifts with people who order the book early. And hopefully that’s helpful.

Rick: Well, I’m excited. I’ve ordered a number of copies, and we’re gonna plan to do some special stuff with our mastermind groups. Oh, great. Coming up. So, John, it’s been a pleasure to have you as we’re going into the new year as a closing thoughts, anything that you would like to share with our audience?

John: No, it’s just a great time, I think to reflect I think the pandemic has caused all of us to look inside and ask what’s really important to us, and I don’t think I’ll go full circle from where we started the conversation. I don’t think there should be any shame in and in saying that I’ve done my turn. I built the company to where I feel comfortable, you know, someone else taking the next turn. And I don’t think there’s any shame in that whatsoever.

Rick: So I agree as we like to say, let us we’ll give you permission, right? Let’s have the conversation. And that’s really what I love about the work we do is we find that sometimes the community is what’s important, especially if you’re feeling burned out. You know, just know there’s people there, and they’re interested in helping guys, if you visit the website, epic as bi forward slash podcast, we’ll have the show notes to today’s episode, and past episodes. Like I said, If you liked my conversation with John, be sure to go back and listen to episode nine. You’ll have some additional information around the value builder program and some of the things that we’re doing. You can also find a video and a link to get your very own value builder assessment on my website, Under the Services tab, you’ll see Val value builder engagement, and go in there you’ll see the video and again the link to get your very own value builder assessment, I highly recommend you do it. If you’d like to learn more about any of the topics we talked about today. If you’d like to have a discussion about you know, figuring out your freedom point, or you’d like to learn more about the 13 week mastermind that we do even some one on one, we’re happy to take a call with you free, no obligation. use us as a resource. You can email me at That’s rip, We appreciate you listening, John. Thanks for joining us today. And until next time, stay safe. And remember, we’re only getting started.

Voiceover:  The Over 50 Entrepreneur Podcast is sponsored by Epic Business Advisory where we help entrepreneurs escape the owner’s trap, build businesses that can succeed without you, allowing you the opportunity to realize more freedom, think bigger, and pursue next-level goals.   Download our Freedom Formula at and remember, we’re only getting started.


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